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Several years ago, I read Venerable Thubten Chodron’s book, Working with Anger, and found it quite inspiring. A couple of months ago, her schedule finally allowed time to speak with me. We talked exclusively about anger: what it is, why it’s harmful, and how we can work with anger in ways that heal relationships, rather than destroy them. She touches on anger’s role in some of the most challenging situations, like gender bias and war protests, and how we can deal with these situations courageously and skillfully.

Venerable Thubten Chodron is an author, teacher, and the founder and abbess of Sravasti Abbey, one of the first Tibetan Buddhist training monasteries for Western monks and nuns in the U.S. She teaches worldwide and is known for her practical and entertaining explanations of how to apply Buddhist teachings in daily life. She’s the author of many excellent books on Buddhist philosophy and meditation. Venerable Chodron is currently co-authoring, with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, an extraordinary multi-volume series of teachings on the Buddhist path, The Library of Wisdom and Compassion.

[00:02:09] Scott Snibbe: Venerable Thubten Chodron, I am in awe of the extraordinary series of books you’ve created with His Holiness the Dalai Lama. First of all, I want to thank you for them and all that you do for the nuns at Sravasti Abbey and your many other fantastic books, including Working With Anger, which is the one I wanted to talk to you about today, for probably obvious reasons.

[00:02:25] Ven. Thubten Chodron: Thank you for inviting me.

The Buddhist definition of anger

[00:02:32] Scott Snibbe: My pleasure, I wonder if you could start by sharing the Buddhist definition of anger?

[00:02:39] Ven. Thubten Chodron: It’s a mental factor, and it is based on exaggerating the negative qualities of someone or something and then responding to that by wanting to strike back or get away. It’s fight-or-flight—I don’t think flight is technically in the definition, but I think it needs to be added.

[00:03:15] Scott Snibbe: They even say there’s also freezing and pleasing, they keep adding responses. They are other responses to stress or strain.

[00:03:35] Ven. Thubten Chodron: Just because we don’t lash out doesn’t mean we don’t have a problem with anger. Especially women have been told that they’re not supposed to express anger. So the anger comes out in terms of—and this part applies to men as well—withdrawing totally. You’re so mad you can’t talk to somebody; you just shut the other person out, shut them down.

Just because we don’t lash out doesn’t mean we don’t have a problem with anger.

For example, early in my training, I didn’t think I had a big problem with anger because I didn’t yell and scream. I didn’t throw things. I didn’t hit people. So I thought, I have a little anger, but it’s not a big problem. Then, Lama sent me to be the Gegu of the macho Italian monks, and my big lesson there was that I have a big problem with anger. It was like, Oh my God, I am really angry.

[00:04:52] Scott Snibbe: How did that anger manifest and how did you start to counteract it?

[00:04:58] Ven. Thubten Chodron: If you’re a macho Italian monk, you do not want an American woman who knows how to speak up to be the disciplinarian and tell you what to do. Anyway, everybody was supposed to come to morning practice and the monks would not show up. I would remind them, we have practice at whatever time, please come, this is an instruction from our teacher. Next morning, nothing, or maybe one person came. Then I had to start going into the wing where their rooms were and knocking on doors and waking them up, which is not my idea of a good time.

If you’re a macho Italian monk, you do not want an American woman who knows how to speak up to be the disciplinarian and tell you what to do.

Dealing with anger

[00:06:02] Scott Snibbe: What helped you to deal with that?

[00:06:03] Ven. Thubten Chodron: I’m one of those people who shuts down and leaves the situation. I would just walk away, go back to my room, and then I would pull out Shantideva’s text, Engaging in the Bodhisattva Deeds, Chapter 6, on Patience or Fortitude, how to work with your anger.

I would spend most of the evening, every evening, going over that chapter, trying to practice the thought training techniques that Shantideva taught. The next day I’d go back into my office, who knows what’s going on, I’d get really mad, and then go back to my room and meditate on chapter six.

[00:06:56] Scott Snibbe: Can you remember a specific example of something that made you very angry and an antidote that really worked?

[00:07:04] Ven. Thubten Chodron: One of the things is, I would sit and ask myself, Okay, this kind of behavior that I’m experiencing from people, a total lack of respect, a total looking down on me—because my pride was hurt and they were all ganging up on me too, even worse. Oh, this isn’t fair.

I would think, Have I ever looked down on other people? Have I ever refused to follow instructions that were just basic, reasonable things? I’ve done that. Have I ever insulted people like they insulted me? I’ve done that. Have I ever been totally uncooperative and ridiculed people? That’s another thing, they ridiculed me in meetings. Have I ever ridiculed people and humiliated them? Yes. Well, if I’ve done that, why am I surprised when other people do that to me?

Have I ever ridiculed people and humiliated them? Yes. Well, if I’ve done that, why am I surprised when other people do that to me?

[00:08:25] Scott Snibbe: It helped you to overcome anger in those situations?

[00:08:27] Ven. Thubten Chodron: Yeah, because the anger is blaming the other person. I realized that I have some responsibility for this. Another way to deal with it is, to think about what buttons are getting pushed? I would have these very interesting little conversations with myself. I’m sitting here, that’s the “wisdom me” and this is the “me that’s mad.” Wisdom me says, Okay, why are you angry? Well, they said this and they said that, na, na, na, na, na.

Yes, okay, they said that, but why are you angry? Well, they did, na, na, na, na. I repeat the same thing a few times. Okay, the wisdom side says, Yes, they did that, but why do you have to get angry? Well, they disrespected me, they ridiculed me, they made me feel bad about myself. Oh, so feeling bad about yourself is their problem? The wisdom me said to the afflicted me. Um, no. Your sensitivity about how people treat you is somebody else’s problem? No, that’s my problem also.

Feeling bad about yourself is their problem? The wisdom me said to the afflicted me. Um, no. Your sensitivity about how people treat you is somebody else’s problem? No, that’s my problem also.

What about your wanting praise and not criticism? Whose problem is that? That’s my problem too. It’s like, Okay, if I have all these buttons that are so sensitive that all somebody has to do is just walk past them and the movement of the air sets off my anger, whose problem is that? That’s my problem of being so ego-sensitive. We cannot control other people. We keep trying, but we can’t control them. The only thing we can change is ourselves.

We cannot control other people. We keep trying, but we can’t control them. The only thing we can change is ourselves.

Finding the balance between activism and working on yourself

[00:11:17] Scott Snibbe: Let me ask you a question because the situations you described seem to have something to do with gender bias as well.

Where’s the place to speak up and try to correct some of that systematic injustice and where’s the place to be quiet and work on yourself? How do you find that balance?

[00:11:54] Ven. Thubten Chodron: In that particular situation, if I brought up gender bias, they would have just exploded and been even angrier, because nobody likes to have anger thrown at them. It’s something that you have to say in a reasonable tone of voice—not too forcefully, not accusing them—because if you’re talking to men, they’re a bit sensitive, although they would never admit it.

It’s something that you have to say in a reasonable tone of voice—not too forcefully, not accusing them—because if you’re talking to men, they’re a bit sensitive, although they would never admit it.

With gender bias, a man will listen to another man about it. If a woman talks about it, Oh, there she goes, she’s complaining, she wants to be equal, she’s such a crybaby. It’s much easier if men would do it. But there are occasions when, as a woman, I do something. What I’ve learned is it’s better to ask it as a question. As soon as you state something, that you’re stating a fact, they take it as an accusation.

I was at a conference last year, and I said, ” I’m curious that there’s so few women. Do you need some help inviting women? I can tell you some good people to invite.” That kind of way is much better. At a second conference, a man brought it up in the Q&A. I was going, Right on, because he brought it up, so I think that people would listen a little bit more.

That’s just one situation about gender bias. There are many other situations where you’re dealing with people where you can say things in a more direct way.

Dealing with self-hatred

[00:14:35] Scott Snibbe: For someone who’s in the throes of anger, when you’re completely controlled by that delusion, what do we do in that situation? Anger is a destructive delusion, but you also talked about the importance of accepting it. How do you do that? Tara Brach once said, You don’t want to tell yourself not to be angry because that just adds shame on top of anger. That leads to this question about being angry at yourself, when you have self-criticism, and self-judgment, how do you deal with that sort of anger?

[00:15:14] Ven. Thubten Chodron: That is a big problem in the West, I was at one of the Mind and Life conferences way back, somewhere in the 90s. This idea of Westerners having low self-esteem came up, and His Holiness the Dalai Lama, was totally puzzled by it. He looked around the room at all of these high-powered scientists who have Ph.D.s and positions at universities, and he said, “Who has this self-hatred, this lack of esteem for yourself?”

Everybody looked around and said, We all do. His Holiness was shocked. His next question was, Why don’t you like yourself? Why are you mad at yourself? Why do you put yourself down? That began really interesting brainstorming sessions. We came up with all sorts of theories, ranging from being taught original sin when you’re a little kid, to the fact that starting very young you get ranked with other kids, who can kick the ball furthest, who got a gold star for being good?

You are always being trained to want to stick out, and the more hooked we are on getting praise and approval from external, the more we judge ourselves and say, “Oh, somebody else got two gold stars in kindergarten and I only got one and my parents want me to be the best one in class and I’m not.” That whole thing started very young of having to be an individual and make ourselves known. It brings a lot of self-criticism and a lot of self-judgment. That’s one aspect of it.

Another aspect of it is if we listen to ourselves, our self-talk, when we’re mad at ourselves. What kind of things do you say? I can’t do anything right. No wonder nobody likes me. No wonder nobody loves me. Everything I do ends in a mess. What words do we hear in that? Always, never, never, no one else, only me. If we look at the language, there are very extreme statements.

I can’t do anything right. Really? You can’t do anything right? You can make a cup of tea. There are so many things that you know how to do. How can you say, I can’t do anything right? That is not true. That is a big, fat lie. There are many things that you can do well. Nobody loves me. Nobody? Come on, That is definitely not true. There are other human beings who care about you. If you have a dog or a cat or a pet pig, they love you too.

How can you say, I can’t do anything right? That is not true. That is a big, fat lie. There are many things that you can do well.

Techniques for dealing with extreme anger

[00:19:27] Scott Snibbe: That’s why people love their pets, right? Pets never hurt your feelings.

Can you talk about more extreme types of anger, in the case of serious abuse or mistreatment, what are the ways to process that and get out of the other hatred, the self-hatred, what are the techniques to pass through that grief?

[00:20:00] Ven. Thubten Chodron: I’m speaking from a Buddhist perspective. Some people find therapy really helpful, if you want therapy, if you need therapy, go to a good therapist.

But first of all, to realize if things happen when you were quite young, it’s like, I was a child. I didn’t understand how the world works. This person did that and kids tend to blame themselves for things. I had one friend who was getting divorced, and her son said, I know why Dad’s leaving, it’s because I’m bad. I cringed when I heard that.

If you’re doing that realize, Wait a minute, I was a kid when that happened, I had no idea what was going on. I developed this totally wrong idea that this was my fault. It’s not my fault. What this person did was wrong. That helps with the self-blame and self-hatred.

But how to get over the anger at the other person? Well, they did X, Y, and Z. That seemed to make them happy. Were they happy before? Were they really happy afterward? If a person is happy, do they wake up in the morning, the sun is shining, things are going well, do they think, I’m going to go abuse somebody?

If a person is happy, do they wake up in the morning, the sun is shining, things are going well, do they think, I’m going to go abuse somebody?

The person who did that, who harmed me, was an unhappy person. If you know anything about that person’s life, think about their life, what happened in their family, what happened in their culture? Or if they faced oppression, discrimination, poverty, or whatever, think of their life, and it’s like, Yeah, that person was really unhappy. In their pain, they thought that harming me was going to relieve their own stress and their own tension and make them happy.

That’s a wrong conception on their part. That isn’t going to make them happy. Why do people do this? Even though they do these things because their wish is to be happy, because they don’t know what the actual causes of happiness are, they act in harmful, sometimes despicable way, what they’re really saying is, I’m suffering. Suffering people, they’re the objects of my compassion, not the objects of my hatred.

Suffering people, they’re the objects of my compassion, not the objects of my hatred.

[00:23:40] Scott Snibbe: The antidote for anger toward the person who harmed you the most is compassion, which can be hard to hear.

[00:23:48] Ven. Thubten Chodron: It works. But you have to remember, compassion does not mean what the other person did was okay. It does not mean that what they did was good. What they did was not good. It was not okay, they created negative karma, and they harmed themselves, and they harmed somebody else. Just because what they did to me was not okay, that doesn’t mean I have to hold a grudge and trap myself in hatred towards them for the rest of my life.

Just because what they did to me was not okay, that doesn’t mean I have to hold a grudge and trap myself in hatred towards them for the rest of my life.

What’s the role of anger in social change?

[00:24:27] Scott Snibbe: That’s very wise. Let’s talk about another difficult situation, what’s the role of anger in social change?

[00:24:36] Ven. Thubten Chodron: When you speak out of anger people don’t listen. They say, Oh, there’s an angry person, and this is what they’re angry about. But does it change anybody else’s mind? No. Of course, protesters don’t like to hear that.

When you speak out of anger people don’t listen.

I protested the Vietnam War when I was in college. One of the conclusions I came to is if you’re angry, you may feel good and have a lot of energy and dump it out and think you’re communicating. Well, communication isn’t just me getting what I’m feeling out. Communicating is thinking of who my audience is and how can I say something in a way that will really help that person understand something different.

You can talk to the people who walk by without screaming, without looking down at them, without telling them they’re wrong. You can smile at the people who walk by, there’s a whole different feeling. But when I say that, the protesters get so mad at me. I’m only trying to comment on the way of protesting, because what happens mostly when you’re protesting is, I’m here and they’re there. I’m right and they are wrong. What they’re doing is awful, they’re completely close-minded, and they’re completely idiotic, I’ve got to yell and scream at them, and that way they will understand and change. Yeah, has that worked?

That’s not going to work. I saw that very clearly during a Vietnam War protest at UCLA, the guy next to me picked up a brick or something and threw it at the cops, and I went, Whoa. Because when you do that, your mind becomes exactly like the mind of the people you’re protesting. The only difference is I’m protesting you and you’re protesting me and calling names. But it doesn’t change minds.

Yesterday, I was giving another talk and I commented about that in terms of the college protests that are going on now. Somebody was furious at me and wrote an email saying, You are biased, you don’t care at all about these people, don’t you see what is going on and why aren’t you condemning that?

They wanted me to talk about the situation that’s happening in another part of the world. I was talking about the college protests. They understood that as me not siding with them against what they were protesting, when actually I shared the same feeling. The difference is that because of the Buddhist training, I don’t see it as this side versus that side. When you’re a speaker, you get used to people misinterpreting what you say and getting mad. When I get these emails where people don’t like what I’m saying, I try to say, “Well, that’s okay. It’s a free world. Everybody is entitled to their own ideas and the whole world doesn’t need to agree with me.”

It’s a free world. Everybody is entitled to their own ideas and the whole world doesn’t need to agree with me.

What is the balance between anger and compassion, justice, and accountability?

[00:29:50] Scott Snibbe: How do you weigh that with compassion, justice, and accountability? What’s the balance?

[00:30:00] Ven. Thubten Chodron: First of all, the word justice, I don’t know about that. I have never heard any of my Tibetan teachers use that. What does justice mean? If the Buddhists don’t talk about it, what’s our first thought about justice? An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and as Gandhi said, Then the whole world’s going to be blind and nobody’s going to be able to chew their food.

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and as Gandhi said, Then the whole world’s going to be blind and nobody’s going to be able to chew their food.

Once I was teaching in Israel, there was some Buddhist group there and they had invited me. It was a retreat situation, we were talking about anger, and I led a meditation, about forgiveness. If you live in Israel, in the minds of people, the Holocaust is alive. This is, by the way, feeding what’s going on in Israel right now, they feel like they are fighting simply to exist.

I led this meditation where we imagined going into Auschwitz and being divided into groups, separating from loved ones, then living in the wooden dormitories and smelling the crematorium all day long, being harassed by guards, hearing the sound of bullets and the firing squad and so on. We spend some time in this meditation imagining that Chenrezig, the Buddha of Compassion, was at our heart, and in each of these situations we would imagine the situation and Chenrezig being there radiating compassion to everybody in the situation.

Not just the prisoners in Auschwitz, but the guards, the Nazi administrators and radiating compassion to everybody. Then we did it going into the gas chambers, and Chenrezig was there and radiating compassion to all the people who have no clue what’s going on. Again, to the people who were running the gas chamber. Can you imagine how those people must feel and then the people who have to go through it afterward and pick the gold out of people’s teeth and cut their hair that they use the hair to stuff the jackets?

It was quite a meditation going through everything, and continually compassion, compassion, Chenrezig’s compassionate white light filling that whole space. It was a very, very powerful meditation. It’s a whole culture that’s traumatized. Even though they weren’t alive during the time of the Holocaust it passes down.

[00:34:13] Scott Snibbe: What happened? How did people respond? I imagine some people potentially not responding that well to that meditation, if they’re not ready for it.

[00:34:27] Ven. Thubten Chodron: It went very well. It was people who’d been at a Buddhist retreat for some time, we didn’t do this on the first day. It affected people quite deeply but not in a negative way.

[00:34:49] Scott Snibbe: That’s quite hopeful because if descendants of those who died in the Holocaust could do that, then probably today, people on both sides of these conflicts could. Venerable Thubten Chodron, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk about such an important and timely topic as anger. The Buddhist approach is powerfully blunt and direct sometimes, and I appreciate your candor, even though it might upset some people. This wisdom can be hard.

Thank you very much. Please continue all your beneficial ideas and however many more dozens of volumes of your series with His Holiness.

[00:35:44] Ven. Thubten Chodron: About being very straightforward, this is why I so much appreciate the Buddha’s teachings and Shantideva’s teachings. My mind is so skilled at justifying, rationalizing, suppressing, repressing, and excusing everything I don’t like that Shantideva’s candor, stopped me in my tracks. I had to deal with my own and stop blaming other people.

[00:36:24] Scott Snibbe: The famous quote, You can pave the world with leather or you can put on a pair shoes. Extraordinary, I remember that every day. Well, thanks again.

You can pave the world with leather or you can put on a pair shoes.

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