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To kick off the new year we’re thrilled to welcome back one of our most beloved guests, Dr. Jan Willis, a trailblazing scholar, inspiring practitioner, and powerful storyteller. Today, Dr. Willis guides us through the six perfections—generosity, morality, patience, joyful effort, concentration, and wisdom—profound practices that were once closely guarded, secret teachings. 

In this episode, Dr. Willis offers a heartfelt introduction to these transformative ideas, weaving in stories from her remarkable life. She shares wisdom from revered Buddhist masters, reflects on resisting racism in the segregated South, and offers insights as a leading Western Buddhist practitioner and scholar.

Throughout this year, we’ll dive deeper into each of these six perfections with inspiring interviews, meditations, and discussions. If you’re ready to discover how ancient wisdom can meet modern challenges, you’re in the right place. 

[00:02:31] Scott Snibbe: Dr. Willis, it’s such a pleasure to have you back again. You’re a very popular guest. Just as popular with our listeners as you are with me. Thank you for joining us again.

[00:02:43] Dr. Jan Willis: It’s a great pleasure, always is.

[00:02:45] Scott Snibbe: This is going to air at the beginning of the next year. We wanted to start out with a very beautiful topic for Mahayana Buddhists: the six perfections. What are the six perfections?

What are the six perfections?

[00:03:01] Dr. Jan Willis: The six perfections we call the six paramitas, or bodhisattva activities. Also, a little bit bodhisattva qualities. They’re transcendent activities performed by one who’s taken the vow to liberate all beings. The six are giving, moral deportment conduct, patience, joyous effort, meditation, and wisdom. But even before Buddhists talk about the six perfections, it’s important to talk about bodhicitta, because bodhicitta is really the gateway onto the Mahayana path.

What is bodhicitta? Citta means both heart and mind. Bodhicitta is this rarest of thoughts, this selfless desire to benefit all others, to take all others out of their suffering. 

[00:04:10] Scott Snibbe: I’m curious, when was the moment for you when bodhichitta awakened?

[00:04:16] Dr. Jan Willis: That’s a wonderful question. I can’t pinpoint a time when it’s happened, but I can at least talk about when the self drops away. I think that’s part of the rarity of this thought. It’s an altruistic thought where others really become more important.

I think we’ve all experienced that. It’s arisen for us countless times in life. Whenever we protect our child, our child’s in trouble and we grab them, right? We’re definitely thinking more about that child than about ourselves at that moment. That’s a glimpse. That’s a bit of the arising of bodhicitta. I’ve had occasions where I don’t say, Oh, that was bodhicitta, afterward. I simply have done what was necessary, then feel good about it because you helped a sentient being out of danger.

[00:05:22] Scott Snibbe: We hear it takes courage to be a bodhisattva or to want to be one, but it takes courage because it’s dangerous.

[00:05:31] Dr. Jan Willis: It could be dangerous!

[00:05:32] Scott Snibbe: Quite dangerous, being nonviolent is dangerous, interestingly. This is a good moment to bring this up, cause we’ve just gone through an election. For people scratching their heads as to how you could have that altruistic, loving wish, even for the person you didn’t vote for and the people that voted for him or her. 

How do you do that? How do you do that for someone who’s new to this idea or who’s been trying to practice it for a long time?

[00:06:02] Dr. Jan Willis: We’ve had this election, and I think the only advice is that we have to try to remain calm and clear to see our best way forward here, because if this were a duly conducted election, and I guess it was, then the message is, we’ve been out of touch, maybe, so we need to be calm and clear and figure out why this happened.

Of course, we need to generate love and compassion for ourselves as well as for the so-called other side. Because we’re never about hating. That is to the point of view of reducing someone’s value because they didn’t vote with us. These are still beings that we have to cherish, though it might be difficult. I want to always say, it’s not the people, it’s their attitudes or their ignorance, those are the enemies. 

It’s not the people, it’s their attitudes or their ignorance, those are the enemies. 

What we want to do is bring them to relief from ignorance, and to have them liberated. Wisdom does that. We have to hope the cloud of ignorance lifts from ourselves, as well as others, so that we can come together and go forward.

We have to hope the cloud of ignorance lifts from ourselves, as well as others, so that we can come together and go forward.

The six perfections: generosity

[00:07:33] Scott Snibbe: Very wise and unified, we’re not hearing so many unifying messages, so thank you for that. Let’s get into generosity. We have six perfections to go over. The generosity in the six perfections isn’t exactly the same generosity we all just know every day. Tell us about generosity through the lens of your own experience.

[00:07:56] Dr. Jan Willis: Whether or not one has an actual, concrete, material gift, generosity, the perfection of generosity, is the perfection of the willingness to give. I think it’s about the practitioner’s mental and emotional willingness to give. It said we can give material objects, what the bodhisattva is known for doing, giving fearlessness, and giving Dharma. So, these are called perfection. They’re called Paramitas, but a paramita is called a perfection because it’s a selfless activity. 

Whether it’s with giving, or ethics, moral deployment, patience, or energetic endeavor, what marks them as being perfections, is that they’re selfless, they’re done selflessly. What does that look like? We might not be able to tell from outward appearance. There might be a person who has not a penny and is contacting a group of people who are asking for donations. You can’t tell from the outside.

You might see a crowd of people in the doorway there, but you can’t tell who’s really giving most. Because the person who’s giving most might actually be penniless. But their perfection of giving is so developed that they have this incredible giving mind. They have the intention of giving, which is selfless and can’t be measured in material things. 

Aryadeva says this pretty much, if you give something with an expectation, there’s no gift there at all. There’s just a negative activity on your part. Otherwise, I give you something and I expect something back, that’s a business transaction. 

Aryadeva says this pretty much, if you give something with an expectation, there’s no gift there at all.

[00:10:00] Scott Snibbe: What about fearlessness? Someone might ask, how do you give fearlessness? Buddhism sees fear wrapped up with aversion, when it’s wrapped up with the delusion. How do you give somebody fearlessness?

[00:10:15] Dr. Jan Willis: Okay, Scott, I did this this past week. They’re not big things. Somebody calls me, a friend of a friend, says, I’m stuck in Atlanta, there’s no more flights for the next four days, can I come? I said, sure. I could see the relief. Person arrives, I say, Hmm, I’ve got clothes your size, I’ve got a laundry, we can wash them. I’ve got food, we can watch a movie later. And you could just see the relief. It says, Okay, I don’t have to stress about this. That’s a kind of easy fearlessness we can get. We can just be a refuge.

[00:10:59] Scott Snibbe: The way I often think about this, the different translation that I’ve been taught is protection, which you’re describing. You can make someone fearless by protecting them like you did with your friend.

[00:11:13] Dr. Jan Willis: It’s simple, and we can all do it, so easily. We have a place, somebody needs it. We think protection, and maybe we’re thinking Warrior and Gladiator and those kinds of movies. We have to be this superheroine, we have to jump in front of them with the sword. That kind of protection. Well, if we’re not in that situation, we do what we can do. It’s much simpler. 

The six perfections: morality

[00:11:45] Scott Snibbe: What about this next perfection of morality? The word morality to people today is sort of not even a good word. It’s kind of funny the way people think about it. Help refresh and renew this word that’s one of the perfect practices of a bodhisattva. 

What is morality?

[00:12:03] Dr. Jan Willis: It’s a way of carrying yourself in the world. It’s moral deportment. I always like to put deportment on that. It’s something about carrying yourself honestly in the world.

[00:12:18] Scott Snibbe: Living with integrity.

[00:12:19] Dr. Jan Willis: With integrity, moving about the world with dignity and integrity. I think the best summation of what Buddhism is is Dhammapada 183. It says so simply, Do no harm, practice what is good. Discipline the mind. This is the teaching of all the Buddhas. I think that’s Buddhism in a nutshell. Do no harm. Practice what is good and virtuous. 

Then, discipline the mind so that we can do those two. This is the teaching of all the Buddhas. It’s all right there. From giving, to moral deportment, to patience, to joyous effort, this is why bodhicitta is so important. Once we experience that flash of lightning in the dark sky that Shantideva calls the arising of bodhicitta, we should work day and night to take hold of that and to develop that and to nurture that. All the time we’re doing that, we’re doing it by practicing as much as we can these six perfections.

By trying to experience the wisdom that helps us to practice them, that helps us to practice them selflessly. Because otherwise the things are just outward performances. That’s what we have to be careful of.

[00:13:56] Scott Snibbe: Let’s talk about patience. In so many ways, this is the pinnacle of Shantideva’s book, this chapter on patience. To your average person, what does it even mean? It’s hard even to translate what that perfection is. You’ve had a lot of chances to practice this one in your life, so again, reflected through the lens of your own experience of when you’ve been able to practice this perfection of patience. 

[00:14:28] Dr. Jan Willis: The first of this principle is do no harm. Patience is what allows that to be a possibility. It’s not laying down and doing nothing and letting someone else walk all over you. That’s not patience. Patience is what prevents us from harming another. When we harm another, we harm not only another, but we harm ourselves, so patience. I get this all the time. People want to say, Oh, come on, there’s justifiable anger. There’s righteous discontent.

Patience is not laying down and doing nothing and letting someone else walk all over you. Patience is what prevents us from harming another.

That is true; use it as a spur to change something, to change a system. Don’t use it as a fuel. If you use it as the fuel, you’re hating. If you’re hating, you’re full of harm. You take the other as enemy if you hate, you don’t want to take the other as enemy. You want to get along with them. This is the lesson of nonviolence: truth and reconciliation; you have to get along.

This is the lesson of nonviolence: truth and reconciliation; you have to get along.

With the election we can’t just say, Okay, I’m going to wall myself off from all these other people who may have voted the other way.  Prime example, a person who was in South Africa at the time who told me the story of being in the soccer stadium when Nelson Mandela came to talk to them. He said, We were all these young people. We were ready to light the town fire. We were ready to raise everything in our view. It would have taken only one word from him, Go. We would have done it. He says, But Nelson didn’t say that. 

Mandela said, We are going to live together. We’re going to live together. And therefore, there must be reconciliation. Therefore, Desmond Tutu helped to found these truths and reconciliations. We have to live together.  In the U. S., Black people make up a certain percentage of the population. If we are going to get free and have a multiracial, racial democracy, it’s gonna take all of us. It’s gonna take all of us together to make it. We can’t just make it on our own. What are we going to do, secede and have 20 percent of the population live in one state? No, we can’t do that. We have to move forward together, and the only way to move forward is nonviolent. 

Shantideva’s Chapter 6 on patience says that everything we’ve done that might be good is destroyed in an instance of anger is saying in an instance of hatred where you demean another being, this goes against the first principle of Buddhism, do no harm.  If hatred arises, which is what I try to say, It’s hatred that the Buddhists are talking about, not anger, not righteous discontent, not a moment of anger, but it’s hatred that devalues another human being, that really wants to destroy another human being, rather than stop the negative actions they’re engaged in.

How do use anger for goodness?

[00:18:20] Scott Snibbe: It’s very subtle about anger, because of course you don’t want to deny it or pat it down. How do you use anger as a spur rather than as something that stokes hatred and separation, otherness?

[00:18:38] Dr. Jan Willis: Behind aversion and desire is ignorance. We think we’re separate beings, but the nonviolent movement tries to impress upon people that you gotta have nonviolent resistance. You can resist an evil action without hating the person who’s coming at you. 

You can resist an evil action without hating the person who’s coming at you. 

The most moving and powerful narratives that I’ve read about people facing people with guns is that we looked at each other, we saw each other eye to eye. I saw this policeman cry. He recognized that I was a human being. That’s the transformation. It’s a powerful one you want to have. When you can meet someone with love and nonviolence. Love, it can’t be left out. That’s what makes it nonviolent. We’re gonna resist you. We’re not going to hate you. 

[00:19:53] Scott Snibbe: It’s not passive. That’s the thing. 

[00:19:54] Dr. Jan Willis: They think it’s passive, you just lie down, you just take whatever. It’s pacific, P A C I F I C. I’m not gonna come at you with any kind of force. I’m not trying to harm you. I’m trying to get you to stop doing a certain thing, and I’m going to do that with love and nonviolence. We always talk about our histories in terms of wars.

But if we really think about it, the movements that have moved human beings around the globe forward have always been nonviolent. Whether we’re talking about Gandhi or we’re talking about the civil rights movement, human rights movement, we move forward in terms of human development through nonviolent struggles, not through wars.

Wars kill people. They harm people. But they don’t move us forward. Because when there’s wars, there’s always a winner and a loser. And therefore, there’s always bitterness. There’s always the need for another war, to settle this once and for all. War begets more war. Hatred begets more hatred. It’s endless. Someone, King said, has to be the first to extend the hand of love.

[00:21:11] Scott Snibbe: You’re quoting the Buddha, right? Hatred never ceases hatred, only love ceases hatred. This is an eternal law.

[00:21:19] Dr. Jan Willis: This is Dharma.

[00:21:21] Scott Snibbe: It’s so powerful. 

[00:21:26] Dr. Jan Willis: I think people maybe don’t get it unless they’ve done it. There’s something that happens when you meet a person face-to-face who’s coming at you with something perhaps you haven’t encountered, and you don’t respond with that same hatred. Something changes.

[00:21:54] Scott Snibbe: I think it’s really true. It’s an awakening moment for anyone who’s come to embrace nonviolence. It’s like a flip, especially If you’ve been violent with your speech, with your body, in your life, and then you change that approach for the first time, it’s like the awakening in this life to nonviolence.

[00:22:14] Dr. Jan Willis: There’s so much space there.

[00:22:20] Scott Snibbe: When was that awakening for you?

Racism and equanimity 

[00:22:24] Dr. Jan Willis: You always go after these personal stories! I knew when I got scholarships and the Klan burned a cross in front of our house when my father was away, I’ve told the stories so many times—I knew that what I wanted to say to those Klan members was, We are a family in here.

Just like I see you are there with your wives and children. You are families out there. We’re the same. We’re the same. You are making a mistake. That’s what I knew I wanted to teach. Because I was too afraid to say it then. That’s when I knew I wanted to do this particular job. 

People need to know because of ignorance, they’re making a mistake. We are just like you. We are the same. We want the same things. We all wish to be happy. We all wish to avoid suffering. In this way, we are exactly the same. That’s where we ought to be beginning. Not this fake, you’re white, I’m black. Basically, we are the same human being.

[00:23:52] Scott Snibbe: Remind me how old you were when you had this thought with the Klan outside of your house wanting to do you harm.

[00:23:57] Dr. Jan Willis: I was going off to school, so I was 16 or 17. But I had seen the Klan before when I was much younger.

[00:24:06] Scott Snibbe: It’s a very, very moving story. It’s very inspiring for anybody angry today. Cause what you were facing back then was much more desperate and intractable, in some ways than what many of us are faced today. 

[00:24:25] Dr. Jan Willis: Yeah, I’m back in the South. This is where I’m going to be for the next few years.

[00:24:38] Scott Snibbe: Has it changed there in the South? Do you find more nonviolence, acceptance, patience, the mission of your life and the wish that you had when you were a little girl has that been fulfilled?

[00:24:49] Dr. Jan Willis: Has the South changed? Where I live is a pretty mixed community here. I’m living in this little edge of suburbia that’s called Decatur in Atlanta. There are pockets around the state that are quite liberal. Yet I stayed up until 12:30 on election day until they called the state of Georgia for Trump. I said, Oh shoot, now I might as well go to bed because that meant that my vote hadn’t gone that far.

The state is divided. This is four years ago this was the state that gave the first Jewish senator and the first black senator their chance. Then one day later, there was January 6th. I think people still live in parallel universes, regardless of the geography. That’s another reason we aren’t talking to one another. 

All this digital stuff doesn’t help because people are cocooned into their phones and their news services. The misinformation is rampant. People aren’t, it seems, too discriminating in terms of that. We have to remain calm and clear and try to see our way through to the best information we can get.

The six perfections: joyful effort

[00:26:19] Scott Snibbe: That may be a good transition into the next perfection of joyful effort, this is another one. This may sound like the hardest one, because how do you maintain joy through things that require effort, things that are difficult, things that take a long time, and that you experience setbacks?

[00:26:40] Dr. Jan Willis: Let’s start with a simple thing. Scott sends me an email and said, Would you be willing to talk to us about the Six Perfections? Joyous effort. Oh, yippee! Yahoo! Scott has asked me to talk about the six perfections. That brings such joy. I gather my books. See this pile, that pile?

I gather them, and I’m happy. Because I’m about to do some research and I love that. Start with a simple thing. Okay, then you’re put on this earth. You have a body that works, a brain that works. Take joy, solace in that. Get happy about that, so thank you.

[00:27:36] Scott Snibbe: You’re welcome. It’s a mutual joy for sure.

[00:27:41] Dr. Jan Willis: It’s true, I love it. I enjoy it. Shantideva says, What you’re doing is proceeding from joy to joy. I think what we need is some real practice with developing bodhicitta, cultivate, nourish it. What are those things that tell us how to develop bodhichitta? Most of the Tibetan texts agree that there are two methods.

One is the seven-point mind training, lojong, and the other is what Shantideva recommends exchanging self with others. Equalizing and exchanging self with others. We should practice those. If we practice those, then we would know how happy and joyous each effort can be. Each effort for the benefit of being can be joyous, if we practice those. As all six of these perfections are, they’re based on bodhichitta. They grow out of bodhichitta.

[00:28:55] Scott Snibbe: What do you say to someone listening who’s not doing Dharma for their living all day? Someone who has a job they might have difficulty with and not like, a boss maybe they don’t like, colleagues? Maybe a living situation that’s a little difficult or a lot difficult. Maybe, without a house. How do you maintain joyful effort in stressful situations like that? Situations that seem unpleasant, unfair, and painful. 

[00:29:25] Dr. Jan Willis: Kindness can change things. At least it can help us personally. Thich Nhat Hanh said smile, those 222 muscles that get relaxed? That is helpful. His Holiness says, Be kind whenever possible. It’s always possible.

I think the simple method, we count to ten before we speak. Before you retort, think, is this nonharmful for the other person? Is it beneficial for the other person? Is it nonharmful to me? Is it beneficial to me? Only if you can say yes to all four of those, make a response. Otherwise, Shantideva says, remain like a log. Smile internally. Think of alternate ways.

Once, I was overtaken, for almost ten days, by furious anger at a person who had just lay in wait to cut me to my core. This was a racial thing. I had been researching my family’s history. Doing genealogy at various probate courts around the south. On one occasion I’d taken my sister and I was talking to this woman. I asked who was the county person who knew all the families and stuff.

This woman was pointed out. She said something to me and I said something back. My sister said to me, Jan, Why are you talking to that lady? She doesn’t mean you any good. My sister could see something. You talk about the South. My sister’s never left the South, she could see something in this woman’s eyes, in her manner.

She said to me, Don’t talk to this woman. She doesn’t mean you any good. A couple of weeks later, I was back at this place by myself. I was looking through a certain book, a slave owner who owned my great great grandparents, and it became clear. I said, It was Compton. I was looking for that owner, and I’m seeing these tallies, which line up with being my great-grandparents.

They’re not named, but I’m at the probate court where you can find wills. In the transferring that in this person’s will, he was leaving his two slaves who were connected to me, I said out loud, Oh, it’s David Compton. Here’s the woman, and she says, Well, David Compton was my great-great grandfather. Then she followed it up, Scott. She says, Mm-hmm. Now I can see where this intelligence of yours comes from. 

[00:32:35] Scott Snibbe: Awful. 

[00:32:37] Dr. Jan Willis: She had been lying in wait. My sister could see it. This lady means you no good. When she said that, this was the history, this was section, this was miscegenation—she’d just been waiting to tell me. I go out to my car, I’m just dumbfounded, I go out to my car and I shake and shake and shake and couldn’t drive away. I was just holding on to the wheel, and I’m shaking, whole body shaking. It was so painful. I was so angry. The anger went on and went on and went on. A Dharma friend said to me, Babes, you really need a Dharma hit on this one. You need a lama hit, she said to me. You need a lama hit. 

A few days later, up from Alabama, back now in Middletown, I go down to New York. There was a conference on, and I approached this llama friend, who took the time to say, tell me everything. I said, Well, I was so angry I shook. He said, Okay, anger, we know about anger because we have it in our own minds. Calm down, I don’t want to deal with that part. Finally, he said, What was the person’s name? I told him. He said, Okay, you take that person, you know what spit is?

He said, We spit, we don’t want to take it back in, do we? He says, You spit her out and you keep going. You have work to do. Spit her out. I wanted to make sure I understood him correctly. I said, Spit her out, lama? He said, Spit her out and keep going. And I felt better. There, Lamas have these different methods. They’re listening. They’re trying the best they can to help you. Spit her out and keep going and that works. It had been 10 days, but that worked for me. Spit her out and keep going.

[00:35:07] Scott Snibbe: To not let her harm you, not let your mind be harmed.

[00:35:10] Dr. Jan Willis: Exactly, so there are methods and it’s wonderful that we have Lamas and people, spiritual friends we can go to when we’re really stuck. I know about anger and I know about its destructive properties, best to get rid of them, spit it out, and keep going.

[00:35:32] Scott Snibbe: Thank you for sharing that. It’s so, so painful and so inspiring as to how you were able to overcome it, and only in 10 days. For many people, it would take 10 years.

[00:35:45] Dr. Jan Willis: I don’t know. Ten days seemed like a lifetime. I was so glad for his advice. 

The six perfections: concentration

[00:35:52] Scott Snibbe: Now these first four perfections are more out there in the world, the next one is concentration. The fifth perfection. Why is that a practice of a bodhisattva?

[00:36:06] Dr. Jan Willis: Wisdom’s always the last, right? It’s always preceded by concentration because we’re told with the three higher trainings that are the hallmark practices for Theravadans. We have to train in these: listening and reflecting and wisdom comes from what this hearing and reflecting upon them, and then from the meditation from concentration on gaining the wisdom. 

All this is not conceptual, it has to be an experience. Then for that, we have to go to meditation. Because this is not something we can just think our way through. This is not just something we can decide. I could decide I’m not angry with her anymore and then I see her again. It’s not something we can decide. It’s something that we have to internalize. Meditation is what helps us internalize so it becomes real. It becomes part of our experience.

[00:37:15] Scott Snibbe: Concentration is difficult. I like how you wrap it up with wisdom: what are you going to concentrate on? It’s not just the breath.

[00:37:24] Dr. Jan Willis: This is analytic meditation. You have to really think about these things. It has to become part of your mind stream. My favorite quote of Shantideva’s, is from the Meditative Concentration Chapter, Chapter 8, Verse 129. It says, “All the joy the world contains has come through wishing happiness for others, while all the misery the world contains has come through wanting pleasure for myself alone.” 

All the joy the world contains has come through wishing happiness for others, while all the misery the world contains has come through wanting pleasure for myself alone.

I’ve had people question me on that and I say, check up with your own experience. Just check up. Don’t just dismiss it out of hand. Lama Yeshe would say, Just check up, dear. Now, that’s verse 129. Verse 130 says, Childish beings look out for themselves, buddhas labor for the good of others. See the difference that divides them. Oh, Shantideva’s just so right on it.

Here’s Shantideva, who kept this all a secret, was known as the good-for-nothing monk who all the other monks at Nalanda wanted to kick out. So what was he doing in secret? He came out with this. He was writing this, which has benefited us for centuries, benefited so many beings. That’s pleasing to hear. 

This is Nagarjuna’s guide to the bodhisattva path. He says that there’s a way you tell a genuine bodhisattva from someone who’s just play acting: a genuine bodhisattva works for the sake of dharma, not for self-benefit. A genuine bodhisattva works to develop meritorious qualities, not for fame. A genuine bodhisattva wishes to liberate beings from suffering, and does not wish purely for his or her own happiness, and accomplishes all these virtuous activities in secret.

He knew the seven-point mind training and exchanging self with others, but he apparently only taught the Tibetans the seven-point mind training publicly. He taught to only a very few disciples the practice of exchanging self with others. It was, for Atisha, a secret teaching. Now, is it secret just because you don’t share it with everybody, or is it secret because of what it is?

This what it was, tonglen. He made this not a public teaching, this exchanging self with others. Why? I don’t know. Did he think it might be misunderstood? Did he think it might disparage people from practicing? Was it just too difficult and too overwhelming? I think it may have been. He thought only the sharpest, the people who had developed the most wisdom could understand this tonglen practice. Because what you’re saying there is that you’re taking on beings’ suffering and you’re giving them your own happiness. This is not something to play around with.

[00:41:00] Scott Snibbe: It sounds very overwhelming.

[00:41:01] Dr. Jan Willis: It sounds overwhelming, doesn’t it? That’s why I was so happy when Bikkhu Bodhi one day at a conference said to me, Oh, it’s much better if you just start with something simple like your little bitty baby self. See your little bitty baby self crying, wailing. What do you need, Jan? Need a bottle? Here’s a bottle. Need a hug? Here’s a hug. He said, Start small.

[00:41:36] Scott Snibbe: Literally yourself as a baby.

[00:41:38] Dr. Jan Willis: Yes, start with someone you feel really close to who’s crying. You can solve it.

[00:41:45] Scott Snibbe: That’s very wise because people who are feeling some self-hatred and disappointment to think back to yourself as a baby, you can’t. It’s very wise advice. I haven’t heard that before. That’s a good one.

[00:42:00] Dr. Jan Willis: He gave that to me in a private counsel and said, It’s just so simple.

The six perfections: wisdom

[00:42:04] Scott Snibbe: All right, the last perfection: wisdom. How do we sum this up?

[00:42:10] Dr. Jan Willis: All the previous five perfections have to be performed with this wisdom. As you do it, the wisdom grows and develops. It’s called enlightened mind, but it’s wisdom mind and compassion mind, both. The sixth perfection is just the perfection of that wisdom. It’s like Buddhahood, knowing what a Buddha knows.

But as you know, there are stages and stages. There are ten Bodhisattva Bhumis, and later, the six Paramitas are extended to ten Paramitas to go along with those ten Bhumis. That happens historically, through the literature. You get other things added, like “upaya” or skillful means, and “bala” or strength, courageous, compassionate, brave bodhisattva.

But none of it can just be accomplished overnight. If we believe—and we’ve seen it in our teachers—that the path is effective, then we shouldn’t feel bad, it’s possible. It seems daunting, but of course it’s possible, and it’s more and more possible, I’m convinced the more we practice the early simple teaching, seven-part mind training these things work. They work for others, they could work for us because we all have minds.

[00:43:49] Scott Snibbe: When someone who’s less familiar or unfamiliar with Buddhism asks you about wisdom and emptiness, how do you explain it to them? 

[00:43:58] Dr. Jan Willis: Wisdom in Buddhism is the wisdom which allows us to defeat ignorance. The only thing that defeats ignorance is wisdom. This is why it’s so important. What is the wisdom? What is the ignorance, we have to ask ourselves. The ignorance is believing, as we mentioned earlier in this conversation, that we exist as separate entities.

The only thing that defeats ignorance is wisdom.

The ignorance is believing that this “I” I have just projected out into space, and I do it every time I wake up, I project it and then I get attached to it. I cling to it. I guard it. I want to protect it. The wisdom says, This is something I projected. It’s totally illusory. That’s so freeing.

The Buddha said, “I have seen you, maker of the I, and no more houses will you build here.” We have this ahamkara, this maker of an “I”. We project it and then we cling to it. Buddhism, basically teaches that we suffer because of our own doing, we suffer because we cling to an illusory “I” and doing so makes us wish for certain things, to have them, and wish to be without other things.

Wisdom tells us, Nuh-uh, shines a light on—it was an illusory thing that you were clinging to. Let go, dear. Just let go. Then you find a freedom that you’ve never experienced before. Let go of it. You feel a lot lighter. You feel much more spacious without having to defend this all the time, to cling to this all the time, and to hear negative words. The ignorance is what keeps us suffering. The wisdom is what releases us from it, the emptiness of a self-existent “I”, the non-existence of that, is what frees us.

[00:46:37] Scott Snibbe: Freedom from that ego that’s not really there. That’s our worst enemy. 

[00:46:43] Dr. Jan Willis: It’s not really there, but what a powerful thing it is in our lives. No matter how hard we try, even if it’s not so strong, we still have this vague feeling of “I.” People who are wise know better. Might be nice to feel that.

[00:47:03] Scott Snibbe: It might be nice. Well, Dr. Willis, thank you. This was really both masterfully informed and also deeply from the heart conversation about this beautiful path of six perfections and your own experience understanding and practicing them, teaching them too in your life. Thank you so much for joining us again.

What a special opportunity. I really appreciate your joyful effort in having another conversation!

[00:47:30] Dr. Jan Willis: Thank you for the invitation. You always ask me to talk about fun things. I appreciate it.

[00:47:39] Scott Snibbe: Thank you. 

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